The Complexities And Compromises Of Parallel Parenting With A Narcissistic Ex With Kristen Gavazzi

With a history of graduating from an ivy league school and being a Wall St financial powerhouse and global traveler, Kristen Gavazzi  was stopped in her tracks as she began bearing children and dealing with the abuse of her narcissistic husband. Kristen shares the complexities of letting go of her career to raise their children only to feel alone being a new parent while facing the difficulties of living with a narcissist. Through the practice of parallel parenting, Kristen grew back into her self confidence and became expecting and accepting of how her ex behaves as a co-parent. She was able to let go of her resistance and invest in the children as her central priority, regardless of how dad shows up. Now, a few years post divorce, Kristen is now enjoying her free weekends while the kids are with dad and her new and growing social circle.

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Listen to the Podcast here

Parallel Parenting: Complexities & Compromises

With me is Kristen Gavazzi, a former client of mine. Welcome, Kristen.

Thanks for having me.

I'm so excited that you're here. Our program is titled Complexities and Compromises of Parallel Parenting with a Narcissist. Kristen, how many years ago did you and I meet?

Almost three years ago because I met you while my divorce was going on down here in Florida, but you were up in New York. I remember the first conversation we had because I grew up like two towns over, a town over from where you were. It was fun that I got to meet you in person as well.

How long are you divorced?

I’ve been legally divorced for two years in August. It feels like it's been a long time because pretty much everything's been on my shoulders. I knew what I was getting myself into when the whole process started.

You in the process for a couple of years.

Only in the process for a year, but it's been a long time because he would not move out of the house. Not only that, but he would not show me any respect and would not talk to me. It was living in complete silence with all the kids around, which was very heartbreaking.

We're doing this series on high conflict divorce. How would you describe your divorce?

Definitely high conflict. When he first told me that he was leaving, he basically promised me the world and tried to talk to me about doing a collaborative divorce. He had already lined up his lawyer. I decided that some of these things that he was promising just didn't sound right. All the things he was promising would have taken care of the kids, but would have left me in the dust. I also knew we were always in a situation.

High Conflict Divorce & Financial Manipulation

When we moved from New York to Florida, and he went to work for a specific company, we had like a timeline of when things would get paid and payouts. The timing of his leaving coincided that he was going to try to get me out of those payouts. I decided to go get myself a pretty high powered attorney in Jacksonville. That's when he decided he would no longer talk to me or help me figure things out.

It sounds like you used some experience and some intuition to enlist someone that you felt was going to be able to negotiate with him in a powerful way.

Yes, and I also knew, and during our marriage, there had been financial infidelity, relationship infidelity, and emotional abuse. I assembled a team because I realized that I was going to be a shell of myself if I didn't get the right people on my team to help me out.

You're describing broken trust on a number of levels. Going into a collaborative situation with so much broken trust is typically a little bit counter to what that approach is about.

Correct.

One of the things you and I talked that there are so many different things, especially with the infidelity you just talked about. Yet, you have young children. You have a lot of years of parenting with your ex. Can you share a little bit about what your parenting experience was like when you were together and when you were going through the divorce?

When we both lived in New York, and that's where we met in New York City, we both had pretty high powered jobs. I traveled globally all over the place. I wasn't young when I got married. I married him when I was 35. I had my first twins. I had twins first, which is crazy when I was 37. I had another one right behind it. Lily showed up on the scene. Something had to give, and he was not willing to take a step back and be a stay-at-home dad.

I was managing global travel with the kids. Everything the kids had to do, where they had to be the nanny, everybody. It was too much. I took a step back when Lily was born. Just a side story. He came to the hospital right after Lily was born with my resume and said, “It's time for you to go back to work because I left my job and you need to go get a job.” I said, “Get out of my hospital room and don't come back, and we'll talk when three months goes past.”

That certainly gives us a flavor, doesn't it?

Yes, that gives you a flavor. We moved to Florida for his job. He decided he wanted to leave technology on Wall Street. We came down here to do healthcare technology. I became the stay a stay-at-home. I couldn't keep working from where I was, and I had no family down here, and that was our agreement. While we were married, he was off working and I was taking care of the kids and doing things to promote his job.

Parenting Challenges During & After Divorce

When you entered into the divorce stage, when things started falling apart, you and I are talking a lot about the parenting and what happened. There were a lot of struggles in that area. Can you share a little bit about what that was?

I always had the kids most of the time. As they get older and they start to pick up different activities, and I have boys and girls, everybody has to be in a different place. I would call and say, “Can you pick them up?” “No.” “Can you do this?” I thought that now the divorce is over, we're going to be able to work together for the greater good of the kids, but it wasn't like that. Everything was on me. I had this pressure where I knew I had to go out and find a job in order to survive.

I also had the full-time job of raising the kids because I think we figured out the first year I had them, like 80% of the time, even though I was only supposed to have them 74%, but still a lot. Very little help. We could not agree on childcare expenses or any of that. The parenting plan, the way it was written, wasn't written tightly enough. There was just constant struggle and back and forth between our lawyers, and nothing got resolved.

When you reached out for some coaching support, do you remember what you were struggling with the most?

Self-esteem, frustration. Self-esteem was the biggest one. All of a sudden, and I don't know how it happened and when it exactly happened, but I went from this like, “Ivy League graduate, Division One soccer player, Wall Street sales star to all of a sudden being overwhelmed mom by myself trying to make new friends.” That all happened in time, but then all of a sudden, I was caught without my backup. My biggest fear was around money more than anything. Like, “How am I going to survive?” We've had a very nice life. To keep it going, it's not easy. The kids don't understand. I never wanted the kids to suffer.

What was the narrative that Dad had about that whole transition, and what should you be doing?

It's funny because he didn't have a narrative. He was to counterparent me.

Sorry, to do what?

I call it counter-parenting. I call it parallel parenting. Just for instance, he would say things to the kids that just didn't make sense. They knew that it didn't make sense as they started to get older. He always had a different version of things or would try to throw me under the bus. It wasn't reality.

One of the things I remember was the struggle that you had, like your kids were actually fairly astute. We talked a lot about how to help them find their way and set boundaries with that. The time that they were with Dad, I remember the youngest had a lot of struggles, even your older daughter had some struggles. Can you talk a little bit about what that was like for you? That's such a big fear of parents, especially parents who are coming from a high conflict, “I cannot be the buffer for my kids when they're with the high conflict parent, or I'm not going to be there to support them.” Talk a little bit about what that was like for you.

It's been a hard one because it broke my heart with some of the things that they would call me, and they'd be sounding like they're on the phone, like under the pillow, like, “Come get me.” “I cannot.” They recorded one time. Lily is getting dragged down the stairs to go to a gym workout. It's all facts. Lily ran away from his house last year at spring break and put herself in complete danger trying to get to me unbeknownst to me. Just things like that. It was just very difficult.

How did you deal with that?

I talked to my lawyers, and then we also have a parental coordinator that's been involved. The honest truth is that I thought this person was going to swing and be our savior and really be an advocate for the kids, but it hasn't turned out that way. If anything, she seems to keep trying to give Trent more time, even though these things go on. I've had to pull my kids back and say, “Listen, this is the time the courts have assigned. There's not much we can do. Go and enjoy your time, you have to be there and set up your boundaries, and then be respectful to whoever he is around and to him. Just know that you'll be back in this environment at some point soon.”

Protecting Children & Teaching Boundaries Amid Ongoing Conflict

Let's talk about boundaries. There are a few things that I would love to touch on. One is boundaries. It's so vital that we teach our children how to negotiate difficult relationships. They're much younger, and yet it clearly took us a long time. Can you share with our readers 1 or 2 things that you did to support your kids in being able to articulate what they need or set a boundary?

I got them therapy. That was one of the big things with the therapist was teaching them right from wrong and what they could expect, and what they should expect. Also, with our coaching, one of the big things that you used to tell me is to expect and accept. I have a board in the kitchen and I would write different things on the board each week, like something inspirational, that has to do with something that we're struggling with. We talked about it all week, but one of them was to expect and accept, because I had to teach my kids that this is the way it's going to be. “Expect it and accept that that's the way it is.” Hopefully, if he shows up in a different way, then we can all be pleasantly surprised.

Expect and accept that things are the way they are.

Beautifully put.

It has worked. It's been one of the major themes in this house.

Acceptance it's such a journey in itself because in the beginning, you're just accepting. We used to talk about, Trent is going to show up as Trent, whatever that looks like. He's not going to show up differently because he's not doing any work to show up differently. There's accepting that divorced and still dealing with the same struggles in parenting. There's teaching your children how to accept. Accepting is such a vital part to ease some of that frustration.

You start to feel crazy because they're telling you you're crazy, and you start to internalize that, and you're like, “Maybe I am crazy.” When you think back, once I finally came out of the fog, I realized we went and saw a therapist after we were first married because of something that happened at our wedding. He told that therapist that, “None of the issues were his, that they were all mine.” He had made a promise to that therapist, he was going to go apologize to somebody for something that happened.

He refused to apologize and blamed it on them. The second round of therapy, he told the therapist, and that was down in Florida, that all the issues were mine, and that she was welcome to keep seeing me. I had been told that he was a difficult personality, but it never really absorbed. I just kept maneuvering around him, trying to make everything happy and work. One day, you wake up and you realize, “They were all right.”

To your first point, which is that you started off coaching because your self-esteem was so low, and yet going from being this powerhouse Wall Street salesperson to being a stay-at-home mom, that in and of itself is a big challenge because it's a shift. When you have a partner who engages in criticism, revisionist history, and black and white thinking, that's crazy-making. I think most of our readers would relate to that, especially if you're open-minded. You begin to doubt yourself because they're also so 100% sure of themselves most of the time. It's confusing.

Yes, it is. I know that from some of the stories my kids tell, he does some similar things to them. That's disheartening. That's hard for me to hear. There's nothing I can really do to protect them except to tell them that “I don't think this is right. I don't think this is real. This is my version of it.” I want to bring it to a therapist and have it discussed because it's tough to watch it happen.

I have this saying I share with people, “how you do something is how you do everything.” When I was engaged, I saw my ex, who talked about his mom as if she were the Blessed Virgin Mary, rip her head off and spit her out. For me, it's like, “Were there red flags?” Here, like now, all these years later, it's as if he would do that to his mom, whom he spoke so highly of, why wouldn't he do it to me? If he would do it to me, why wouldn't he do it to his daughter and his son? I think it's so important to know that how you do something is how you do everything. Of course, anyone can change, but not by putting their head on the pillow one day and waking up the next day. It takes therapy, coaching, and doing the work.

It's interesting that you say that because I used to say, when he fired somebody at work, it was like he went after them. He would one week say, “This person's given me a hard time. I don't like this person.” The next week, they'd be fired. I'd be like, “If I'm ever up on your dartboard. Lord, help me.” Guess what? I was on that dartboard. It was not fun.

Challenges In Co-Parenting & Parallel Parenting

The question is, I want to get into the parallel, or as you call it, the counter-parenting. Here you are, post-divorce. It's like so many of us are like, “I cannot wait until I get to that point so that I'm free. Yet, I had young children.” You have young children. There are a whole lot of years where you have to be, the world tells us, “Be very amicable and cooperative,” but that takes two. Can you share a little bit about your experience? It sounds like you haven't gotten the cooperation, the collaboration, the communication from Dad. Share a little bit about what you were in your terms, counter, my terms, parallel parenting is like.

In the beginning, I would ask him, “Can you take the kids?” We had an agreement that he paid a certain percentage I did, but then at the end we couldn't agree on what that was. He thought the kids should go to aftercare. My kids had never been in aftercare before. I knew I had to go to work, so I wanted to hire somebody to watch the kids get the homework done and get them where they needed to go because we both agreed that extracurricular activities were important for our kids, and they'd always done them.

It just became a big source of contention because I went back to work originally. My job was a lot more involved than I thought it was going to be. I had to be in an office all day. He wouldn't pay, but I wasn't making enough to pay for the expenses of child support. We sat down and they told me, “Now we think you're going to be traveling this much.” I was like, “How is that going to work because he was never available?” That was tricky. It just doesn't matter. It's usually if the kids say, “Mom said I can do this.” “What did she say? Why'd she say that? I haven't said you can do it.” If he doesn't get to make the rules or get bring the activity to the table, it becomes this big thing as opposed to just saying yes or no.

What strategies have you enlisted to minimize at least that stress?

I basically have learned to write a brief message to him. We don't necessarily talk. He doesn't pick up the phone when I call. I will text him with, “I need help these days.” If he cannot help me and just says, “No,” I leave it at that. I don't go back. I'm not like, “I know you're around. I know whatever.” I just say, “he cannot help me.” I go along. I've become very independent again. I support parents in my lane when I have children.

You find a workaround, and I think the old way of you need to show up differently, is us once again trying to change a person who didn't change while you were married.

It's exhausting trying to like change them. You just start to automatically go, “I get it. He's never going to show up and do this. He's always going to work first. He's always going to pick his family first. We're on the low end of the totem pole. That's okay because my kids are not that low on my totem pole. They are right at the top.”

We're on the low end of his totem pole but that's okay because my kids are not that low on my totem pole. They are right at the top.

How did you get over the it's not fair thing?

That was a tough one, because you just feel so slighted and feel like, “What did I do in life to deserve this? I've held up my hands in the bargain.” I think that just took time. It also took a lot of encouragement from others, and I didn't want to believe it for a while. A lot of people were like, “How could you feel this way? This is great. You were given a gift. The guy's a jerk.” Honestly, my kids were involved. It was heartbreaking for me. I wasn't raised to be divorced. Everybody else had successful marriages around me, whether they were happy or not. They were still together for the sake of the kids. It just took a lot of time. Time and coaching.

How has all this impacted your relationship with your children?

My relationship is tight as ever. My kids talk to me about more than I ever thought they would open up and talk to me about. We talk about everything. Not even having to do with their father, but their friends, who they like, who they don't like, relationships. How to deal with somebody. Their sports, all of that stuff. I am constantly chatting with my kids, and it's great.

Creating A Healthy Relationship With The Kids Despite Challenges

That's awesome and that's beautiful. Kids typically go through so much emotional turmoil when going through divorce and having a high conflict parent. Do you have any tips? Was there anything that you did to elicit them to be so open with you?

I think it just naturally happened because I'm pretty calm in the house, and I don't lose my temper, but they don't give me reasons to lose my temper. I feel like I always have to remind myself, “If this is the worst they can do, I'm doing okay.” Just being calm, and I try to carve out a little bit of time for each kid. If one kid is taking up too much of my time, I'll go to the other two and say, “Listen, I realize that I'm with Morgan too much and that I need time with you. Let's go have dinner night. Just you and me. You pick it.” Things like that.

That's so perfect.

It's hard for a single mom to do that. It is.

I had date night with my kids for a long time and they were young and so date night was it was like a 1/2 hour to 45 minutes a piece and my son would usually want a burger and my daughter would usually want to go on the swings and have ice cream and it didn't matter. It was just as a single parent, I think in general with parents, it's good to give each child, like that individual time, and as a single parent, even more. I love what you're saying. I'm getting the sense that all that frustration that you had, you found a way to not bring that into your relationship with your kids, and that, between that and having them so front and center that you have a really beautiful relationship with them.

When they want to talk about something he did, I try to reverse it and say, “I'm not going to give you an opinion or say something back or necessarily agree with you. Let's just talk about what the situation was and what how it can handle differently.” That's how we direct that conversation.

You said something earlier about speaking with your ex or communicating with him. You said, “Keep it brief.” Bill Eddy, who's known for our high conflict communication, says, “Brief, informative, firm, and friendly.” That brief, especially with someone on the narcissistic spectrum, who could grab, the more you write, the more they have the opportunity to fight with you. The briefer you keep it and the more neutral you keep it. Not that you're going to get what you want, but you at least don't get the hell storm.

That doesn’t happen overnight. You have to learn your lessons, you start to realize, “Maybe I shouldn't have done that,” and you have to walk away when you're frustrated and sit your and put your phone down for a couple of seconds and then decide how you want to respond. There's a lot of strategy, too. I feel like I'm always negotiating and strategizing, which is crazy that that's the way I live my life, but it's my reality.

Your reality is a little bit crazy because of your reality.

Honestly, it never really gave much thought to how much work it was for a single mom that's got her kids most of the time and trying to work full-time too. Now that it's happened to me, I'm like, “Whoo.” More power to all those women out there doing it on a daily basis. It's a struggle some days.

The thing you just said, I just to bring up the 12-Step Program for a second. Step one is to curb the conflict by creating space. For you to say, I'm learning how to put my phone down, how to not react right away, how to give myself a little bit of time to calm down, be strategic, do something that's more effective. That's actually how our whole program starts. I know you and I talked about that a lot, too.

Fear Of The Worst-Case Scenario In Divorce

The other thing that I want to touch on before we wrap up is fear, because I think all of us have so much fear of going through the divorce. One of the things that I think is important is, I'm curious what you remember. The fear that we have going through the divorce is often of this catastrophic worst-case scenario post-divorce. “I'm going to be broke. I'm not going to see my kid.” What were your greatest fears, and can you share whether or not they came true, or what your reality is in comparison?

While we were going through the divorce, he kept saying, “I'm going to take 50% of those kids.” He didn't. It was the first thing he gave me in the mediation was basically he gave me 75% of the kids. That was frustrating for me. I love having my kids. I would have died if I didn't get that. Honestly, I'm willing to do anything. I'll even put myself on the back burner to make sure that they have a great life and that they're set and they're secure. You need to help me out here.

I'm willing to do anything—even put myself on the back burner—to make sure my kids have a great life, that they're set, and that they feel secure.

One fear was that you wouldn't have your kids.

Money. Honestly, I was like, I had a stroke when I was 29, and I powered through it, and I ended up having successful pregnancies and everything. When I get overloaded with too much stuff, things start to drop, and it's very frustrating for someone like me. Some days, it's hard to keep it all together. Full-time job, full-time parenting, responsible. I have a full-time job managing all the expenses and stuff that have to go back his way and the calendar. It's like all these things were put on my plate that I never had to worry about before, and deal with the communication, but the money thing, I've always had that issue. I'll probably always struggle with it. Even if I'm totally fine, I'll never think I'm fine 100%.

Based on what your worst fears were, did they come true post-divorce?

No. I have my kids more than I thought. I'm still living in the same house comfortably. I can still afford to make sure the kids have their activities set. My one biggest thing, the biggest struggle that I've had, is the whole job situation. It's hard. I know this is sad to say, but a 50-year-old woman trying to get back in the workforce after taking basically an 11 to 12-year break is no easy task. I have been trying my hardest for the last couple of years.

At first, I was  stubborn and said, “I won't travel.” I had a job offer to go to either London or New York, and I couldn't do that because I couldn't leave. Without him paying and me not wanting, the kids weren't secure enough. Now I'm coming around, they're getting a little older, and I'm like, “I'm ready for a sales job and I'm ready to travel.” I'm back in the market trying to find something that's going to fit. I do realize now that I'm just going to have to give up some of the control that I have, but we'll get there. It's frustrating, but we'll get there.

For the most part, you're in a better place. There are things that you still want to do. I really relate to as our children get older, we have a little bit more flexibility to do things. I found myself as well that as my children got older, I could start investing more in my next level of career versus when they were young, especially just post-divorce. I remember you had taken that position, and then you were like between a rock and a hard place.

You wanted to be with your kids, but you had customers or clients that you were trying to deal with. I'm so glad you brought that up. It is by no means a cakewalk. Even if you get the settlement of your desire, number one, being a single parent is difficult. Being a single parent with a high conflict ex is difficult. Navigating all of those other pieces. When you think about the difficulties of today or this year compared to the difficulties of what you were facing when you were deciding or you were facing the divorce, what would you say is the difference between your life experience now and then?

I guess make all the decisions. Is that what you're looking for? I'm not sure.

More of an emotional thing. Where are you now?

I don't know when I have to go to bed at night. I like having my own bed. I like knowing where all the kids are. I don't know. I've eased into it. I've made new friends. It's opened up my world. You start to get out, and people are like, “This person's divorced. You should meet them.” I’ve met such a great network of people, and so I feel like some of these people have become family to me lately. That's really opened up. Emotionally, it's been amazing. I don't have a lot of time for myself to be quite honest, but that's okay, there'll be another time when I'll have time.

The Value Of Emotional Support & Coaching

Two last questions. What would you say was the greatest impact, like you invested in coaching, you rolled up your sleeves, you did some work? What was the value of that for you going through the process?

I could not have gotten through all the mess that I had to get. The lawyers only tell it one way, and they just look at it from the legal standpoint, but I needed more of the emotional support, and I needed someone to put my head back on straight. “This is not you. You're not crazy. This is actually happening to you, not because you asked for it.” All of that got me from one point to the next. It got me to where I needed to be.

The lawyers only tell it one way and focus solely on the legal standpoint, but I needed emotional support—someone to help me get my head back on straight.

I could not have done it without coaching. I am like the biggest advocate. I tell everybody if they say, “We're getting a divorce.” I'm like, “I go get a coach.” I know the lawyers are not big fans sometimes of coaches because they think that you give advice that's different. I think I've always balanced it well. I've really leaned on you more for the emotional aspect of it and healing.

A good coach is helping you find your answers a lot more than they're telling you what they should. There should be very little telling and a whole lot of pulling out of you what's your unique, perfect way is. Last question, a lot of the people reading they're just entering that very long, dark tunnel. They don't believe there's a light on the other side of it. They're scared. They're looking for some hope and encouragement. Do you have any words for them?

Find some people that will actually listen to you, tell the same story twenty times, and not give you a hard time. Find people that have patience. Honestly, I have like two sisters, and one of them used to always be like, “I don't understand why you cannot get over it.” When you go through the emotional abuse and you have suffered at the hands of a high conflict personality, there are a lot of things that you just don't come naturally, and bouncing back from that is not one of them.

I like to say that I started out as a pretty functioning, intentioned human being that gave up a lot of my own loves for everybody else and then for everything that my marriage gave me. It took a long time. I think it was only about three months ago that I actually woke up for the first time feeling amazing. I now enjoy the first year when the kids would leave me, I'd cry, and then all weekend. I don't anymore. I've got a life, and I don't get that much time to myself. When I do, I make the most of it.

That is such a great note to end on. I love the part about the support network. The truth is, just because they're your sister or your friend doesn't make them a healthy person to speak to, and finding that like a team of support. The people who have emotional intelligence, who are going to support you and lift you up, and not tell you what you should do. It's priceless having that as part of your team.

It is, and honestly, I still listen to the divorce podcast, and they still help me every day, and they still answer questions that never got answered. The divorce podcast community is amazing, especially like your Journey Beyond Divorce. I cannot get enough of it. I don't know why I'm so attracted to it, it just makes you feel like, “It's happened to everybody else too, not just me.”

It gives a lot of professionals in there giving guidance, experts that you're not paying for, and getting their guidance. Thank you so much for sharing your story. It's lovely to see you again and to chat with you and to hear how well things are turning out. I wish you the best of luck in this next phase of your finding the perfect career and what have you.

Thank you.

For those of you reading, we're going to be back doing Voices of Celebration again next Wednesday with another former client. If you have any questions about the 12-Step Program, so much for what Kristen talked about. The guidance that she got in private coaching is exactly what we give in the 12-Step Program. Check that out, and we'll see you in there. Thanks again, Kristen.

Important Links

• Kristen Gavazzi on LinkedIn
• Kristen Gavazzi on Instagram
• Kristen Gavazzi on X
• 12-Step Program
• Journey Beyond Divorce on Instagram