How Divorcing Dads Can Protect Their Mental Health And Stay Connected With Their Kids With Dr. Eran Magen

Trigger Warning: This episode contains discussions about mental health challenges, including depression and suicide, that may be triggering for some listeners. If you or someone you know is struggling with thoughts of suicide, please reach out for support. You can contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK (8255), available 24/7. Your well-being matters, and help is always available.

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Did you know that divorced dads are at a significantly higher risk for mental health challenges, including depression and even suicide, compared to other men? The combination of emotional upheaval, societal expectations, and fears around losing contact with their children can take a serious toll.

This episode dives deep into why fathers face such unique and daunting challenges during divorce—and how they can emerge stronger and more connected than ever. How can dads protect their well-being and maintain strong relationships with their children? From mental health strategies to co-parenting tips, this episode is packed with actionable insights.

We explore why divorce often hits fathers so hard and discuss proactive steps to help dads stay healthy, grounded, and resilient while fostering joyful, collaborative relationships with their kids. Whether you’re a divorcing dad or supporting one, these tools are essential.

My guest today is Dr. Eran Magen, an expert in parenting and mental health with a background from Stanford and Yale. As the founder of DivorcingDads.org and ParentingForHumans.com, he’s dedicated his career to empowering fathers to navigate divorce with strength and wisdom.

Dr. Magen’s insights have supported countless dads in overcoming the risks associated with divorce while building enduring connections with their children. Tune in to discover how his groundbreaking approaches can make all the difference for you or someone you love.

Connect with Dr. Magen:

• Website
• Instagram
• Podcast

Journey Beyond Divorce Resources:

• Join the High Conflict Divorce Support Group
• Follow JBD on Instagram

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How Divorcing Dads Can Protect Their Mental Health And Stay Connected With Their Kids With Dr. Eran Magen

Welcome back to another episode. We’re talking about divorcing dads experts strategies for thriving through divorce. As many of you know, divorcing dads are at significantly higher risk for mental health challenges, including depression and even suicide compared to other men and the combination of the emotional upheaval, the societal expectations, and the fears around losing contact with their children can take such a serious toll on divorcing men. This episode dives in to why fathers faced such unique and daunting challenges during divorce and how they can emerge stronger and more connected than ever.

The Visionary Behind Divorcing Dads

With me, I’m so excited to speak to Dr. Eran Magen, an expert in parenting and mental health with a background from Stanford and Yale. He’s the Founder of DivorcingDads.org and ParentingForHumans.com. You want to check it out. He’s dedicated his career to empowering fathers to navigate divorce with strength and wisdom. With no further ado, welcome, Eran.

Thank you very much, Karen.

This is a conversation I love to have my readers know that I have a history with my dad and struggles. I’m excited for where we’re going to go. Before we dive in, I love for my guests to share something interesting and unique about themselves that doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with your 9:00 to 5:00 job. What do you have for us?

You were kind enough to give me a slight heads up before we started, so I thought ferociously and I’ll say that I have a couple of hobbies that I don’t think are completely weird but are very common. After some time, I realized there’s a common thread between them. I like playing music and singing with other people. That’s just a huge source of joy and connection for me. I play guitar and some harmonica. I play some percussion and just figuring out harmonies with other people is amazing.

There are other versions of this. They are physical to my mind. I dance Argentine tango. I play acroyoga, if you know what that is. It’s like grown-ups balancing on each other basically. All of those things to me are about harmony and figuring out how to move or saying or do something in relation to another person. It’s just such a source of joy for me to experience this coordination. This is my smattering of hobbies and the connecting thread that I see through them.

I love the connecting thread. It’s like connection and harmony, which is beautiful. I’m always envious of people who have musical abilities because I feel like it lights up one’s soul to connect and sing or play and make music in the world. That’s beautiful.

I love it. It’s such a different way of connecting to. There’s no words and no content. It’s not intellectual. It’s operating on a very different level. It’s just so inherently satisfying.

It sounds like a nice juxtaposition to the sometimes, heavy work that you do.

Yes and no. In a way, it fits because I don’t think of my work as having to do with being adversarial or trying to operate from adversarial viewpoints even when I’m working with Divorcing Dads. I’m always looking toward how do we reduce conflict, how do we live well inside conflict and disengage from the conflict. If it exists, how do we prioritize time and connection and engagement with the kids to their benefits and to ours. It feels related. I’ll say in the activities that I enjoy, I also do a lot of martial arts.

I have done martial arts since I was in third grade. That too is a way of relating. You have to be very aware of what the person in front of you is doing. Whether you’re playing with them collaboratively like acroyoga or an improv, or you’re engaging with them adversarial or at least competitively. We’re not trying to hurt each other when we’re training, but the mindset is different. Still, it requires the same level of awareness, coordination, and caution with the other person and realizing that if I do something extreme, you’re going to react to something extreme.

There’s a way to de-escalate even in situations that are easily perceived as nothing but conflict. Even within conflict, there are still rules even when we think, “The other person is totally out of control and totally doing whatever they want to do and they are disregarding.” Everybody’s aware of some lines and we can always cross them. If we’re not careful, then it escalates. Anyhow, all this a very long way to say, yes, it recharges me and energizes me to do these things that I love. I see them as very much connected to how do we live in relation to other people, rather than only tag it as conflict and nothing else.

Thank you for sharing.

Thank you for letting me immediately start blabbering on.

The Personal & Professional Spark Behind Divorcing Dads

How did DivorcingDads.org originate?

When I was in graduate school for psychology, I got very interested in how people support people. People who are not clinically, just normal people. What do you do when you meet somebody and they’re in a bad mood? How do you support them? I started doing more work on this and eventually, this morphed into my very strong interest in parenting and how to form strong and supportive relationships with kids.

I’ve been doing workshops, sessions, and classes for parents for over a decade usually through school districts. That was the one line of work. Another line of work was this company that I started some years ago that works with universities on suicide prevention. We check in with students individually once a week through text messaging and see how they’re doing. If they’re not doing so well, we start bringing support resources on board. Early intervention type of work.

A lot of my thinking ends up getting split between parenting and parents and suicide prevention. Usually, the two are separate but there’s areas of overlap. Both some concerns for the parents and often a lot of concern for the kids. How do you establish strong supportive relationships and all of these different contexts? I went through my own process of separation from my son’s mom. It was very tough for me. The first few years we’re very hard. I leaned extremely hard on my friends and felt so grateful to them as this was happening.

I feel very lucky to have had these relationships in place and with these particular people who were again just so incredibly supportive and still it was incredibly tough. It was very difficult years. Part of the way that I make meaning when I go through something awful, I start writing down what I’m learning in order to make it easier for the next person was coming down that same trail. I tell myself, “A least this is helping somebody or maybe we’ll help more people down the line.”

Once I got my head above water in my own process, organize my notes, and started sharing them with people. I got very positive feedback and realized two things. One, there are very few resources available for men going through this. Two, this is bad for men in particular because as I was going into the research and realizing the increased risk that you were talking about before and the increased risk for death by suicide, which is very marked about double in any other marital status category.

If you’re going through a divorce as a man, your risk of suicide jumps by at least two. I thought, “This seems like a good thing to focus on. I want to help men who are going through this process stay healthy, stay sane and stay connected to their kids,” because that’s so important to the kids as well to have a good connection with a positive functioning, less or more happy father. It’s just good for everybody and in the process figure out how to de-escalate the relationship with the ex-spouse. Everybody wins.

I started thinking about the kids. The relationship between a parent and a child is the most important relationship in the world. Most of the world’s trouble would probably be a lot less if everybody had good relationships with their parents. This is what I’m orienting toward and this is a way of helping this high-risk group of parents at risk.

The relationship between a parent and a child is the most important relationship in the world. Most of the world’s troubles would probably be a lot less if everybody had good relationships with their parents.

Not only regarding their own wellbeing but also at risk in terms of their relationship with their kids. There’s a way of helping this high-risk group of parents to stay connected to their kids in a positive way but hopefully prevents bad things from happening. It started because of this overlap in interest and then my own personal experience. They all came together in a way that seems completely obvious in hindsight.

Beautiful convergence of the different interests, the parenting, suicide concern, then your own experience. Let’s talk about when you think about men going through divorce. What would you say are the top 3 to 5 biggest fears, triggers, or concerns that you work with most of the time?

Decoding Divorcing Dads' Fears: Money, Kids, & Self-Identity

This is not a range of exactly in order but I would say top five are fear of losing connection with their kids. Becoming estranged from the kids, basically. Fear about losing money. Number three is, struggling with the change in self-perception, which I would divide into two. One is, a lot of times men in high conflict separations or divorces get so much negative messaging about themselves. I often see them struggling with it for the first little while. I would say 6 to 18 months, wondering if they are very bad people and just trying to work through that.

The other half of it is wondering who they are outside the context of a family, which for many men is the main thing that exists in their life outside of work. These are the big four ones I would say, and then the fifth is then, what happens next? Am I going to have another relationship or another family? How can this possibly happen? Initially, it’s, who might want me later on? It’s, who do I want to be with? I would say these are the big five. What do you think? Does that drive with your experience?

Completely. I probably would put money a little further down for a lot of the people I deal with but losing the kids or losing that connection. A lot of my clients are worried about the safety of the kids once they leave. That’s something that has kept a lot of them. It’s like, “I need to stay because emotionally things are so chaotic or conflict oriented at home.” Self-perception absolutely. The, who am is such a big thing.

In your statement about that, you touched on something I want to dive into which is, how much support women have. Us girls, we’ve been chatting and connecting with each other since early. We get very deep. We go vulnerable and emotional. If you need someone to talk to, you usually have a handful of BFFs you can call. Guys, my dad, my son, and my husband would get together with their friends and come back and be like they knew what the football stats were.

They knew who liked what team but when you asked them about things outside of that, it seemed more limited. I know it’s changing but slowly, this club your boots by your boots straps and have a stiff upper lip and don’t get emotional and boys don’t cry and all this stuff when you’re in the vice of something like divorce. High conflict divorce does not serve men at all.

It’s worth adding this is on average. There are lots of guys that have good close friends and they’re quite a few women that don’t have any confidants. On average, women have such a better developed support system and closed vulnerable relationships than men do for sure.

Custody Battles Unveiled: When Separation Begins, Where Do Kids Go?

You add the professional realm, where as you said, you didn’t have a lot of support. There aren’t a lot of male divorce coaches out there and I have found which is why I was so excited to have you on that when I’m creating content for men and I go and I look. It’s like it’s so smart, especially my particular interest in abused spouses or abused men. It’s like this dirty secret that’s hidden behind a curtain. Let’s dive into the kids. This whole concept of losing the kids and the narratives that your clients and maybe mine get from their lives that make them scared that they would lose the kids. What does that sound like coming from your clients?

Usually, separation starts when the woman in the relationship again, typically on average and most commonly, the women will plan and initiate the separation and arrive at it very well prepared. Having already developed a lot of internal velocity and the men are just in shock initially. This is a common story. It’s not 100% of time at all. Maybe men ignore the signs of things are bad or even actual explicit things that the soon to be ex is saying like, “This is not working out,” and eventually says I’m done and then the men are very surprised and have to start dealing with it.

The very first thing that happens is a separation of residences. When this happens, almost all the time, the kids are with the mom, one way or another. Many men want to be considerate at this point or trying to be helpful saying, “I’ll move out. The kids can stay in the home so they’re in a place that they’re used to. You can stay with them.” Through one path or another, it’s almost always the case that the kids stay with mom initially.

One thing that I’ve seen repeatedly and again, I’d be curious to hear how that drives with your experience. It seems that status quo is King. Everything having to do with family affairs and family law. The system as a whole is very reluctant to change status quos. Once something gets established, its canonized quickly. If the kids are with the mom, the dad is living in some little rented apartments somewhere.

It seems that the status quo is King. Everything having to do with family affairs and family law. The system as a whole is very reluctant to change status quos.

The dad then has to work very hard to get time with the kids if the mom isn’t interested in doing that because you can’t break into the house and take the kids away from school without the moms agreement or you could but things goes South very fast. That’s unadvisable to do stuff that are bad for the kids. The kids are just with the mom and at this point, it’s an uphill climb. It becomes a serious point of contention. At that point when people lose a sense of the importance of guardrails, accusation is going to start flying fast.

One person will say, “You’re not safe for the kids.” Other will say, “You don’t care about the kids.” Another will say, “The kids tell me that they’re afraid of being with you.” It becomes worse and worse quickly. If you’re in a situation like this and you’re the person who’s not the one who’s caring for the kids by default, which is typically the mom initially, then you’re cut off.

It can certainly feel like you’re at the mercy of the mom in that situation, whether or not she’ll give you the kids, and then you’re facing a choice. Do you go to court? Do you go to police? Where do you even start? In the meantime, time is ticking and I’m not seeing the kids. What are they hearing when they’re at home with her? Everybody’s worried about parental alienation. Whether or not, it’s happening. It’s fairly rare that it happens but it does happen sometimes, and so everybody’s worried about it. I think that’s where it starts.

I have a number of different comments I’d like to put on the table to talk about. In my own divorce, I wasn’t allowed to leave the house because if I left the house and got an apartment, my spouse could go to school, pick up the kids and be the primary parents. I stayed for three and a half years in the attic.

With both of you living at the same house?

Yes, especially in this day and age where money is tight for so many. A lot of people live under the same roof until they’re divorced. I would even say, as you tell that story, most of the people who come to us, men and women are the ones making the decision. Not always, but very often, and you’re right. I give my men and my women the exact same guidance, which is be quiet, get ready, get your head heart and home in water before you dive in so that you’re not upside down through half of this.

It makes sense to me that men and women who know enough to get the guidance and education early on, one of the key things would be, can you leave your marital home? What happens if you these are conversations I have early on? Is there an attorney you can at least consult with? If you leave the marital home, are you setting something up? If one doesn’t know that, to your point and they’re just trying to do the right thing because mom is so upset and they want to give her space.

The key here is when you’re entering divorce to do anything without first learning your legal rights is unadvisable. It’s such a beginning of such a big transition. You might still decide to move out but at least you’re doing it with the knowledge. Do I have to get a temporary parenting order in place? What else do I have to do before I go forward? It makes so much sense that you’ve been told that your wife wants a divorce. You go and find a place thinking you’re doing the right thing and you find yourself behind the eight ball is what I’m hearing you say.

It’s such a bind for those of us that want to keep things non-adversarial. The idea of starting to make all these strategic decisions that have assuming that we’ll talk it over and it will be okay. It already feels like, “Am I the one escalating? What’s happening here?” This is a terrible bind to be in as a person who is seeking to avoid conflict or to de-escalate? There are ways around it but they require sophistication. I shouldn’t mention because we’re coming into this in a particular framework. We’re talking about high conflict, divorce or separation.

We can broaden to all divorce because it is quite different when you’ve got a garden variety of divorce.

It’s important to focus on high conflict sometimes and to talk about what to do in those situations. At the same time, when talking about it, it’s very important to say it’s so much better to avoid high conflict divorce. It’s possible to get divorced without high conflict. It’s possible to disagree strongly and even dislike the other person and still have a collaborative divorce. Divorce that is high conflict is bad for everybody.

It’s so much better to avoid high conflict divorce. It’s possible to get divorced without high conflict.

It’s not good for anything except lawyers. It’s just so bad. It’s so damaging for the kids, the parents, and the parent’s families. It’s so much better to avoid it and work collaboratively even if you dislike the person. Prevention is the best thing to do but if we’re in a situation where one person knows that they want to separate or have a divorce, and the person is caught unaware, then you’re just operating in a fog. It is very reasonable.

A first piece of advice is do exactly what you said, which is stop. Don’t act before thinking. Say, “I need a week to process this. I can live in the attic but I need to process this.” As you’re processing this, start talking to people. Talk to people who know what they’re saying. Maybe go talk to a mediator or to a lawyer on your own. Maybe find a collaborative divorce lawyer and non-adversarial legal practice. Some states have them.

They’re cool where both partners sign on to work with the lawyer or with separate lawyers but there’s an agreement. There’s a clause in the agreement that says that, “If anybody goes to court, all of the work stops with this Lord. The Lord cannot represent you in legal proceedings.” That’s an amazing guardrail on a legal relationship like that.

Navigating Divorce Styles: Collaborative Vs. High Conflict Paths

Collaborative approach is encased in the commitment to avoid court.

That’s just so helpful. It’s ideal and I wish I know about at the time. As soon as you get the bad news. Sleep on it or probably have a sleepless night on it but then the next day, go look for advice and start orienting toward collaborative approaches. If your friend calls you and says, “I can’t believe in my spouse just said blah, blah, blah.” To dispense exactly this advice can be one of the biggest favors you can do to a friend of yours to say, “Slow down. Stop. Orient before doing anything and immediately start putting this on a collaborative track.” Once you’re on a conflict track, things escalate quickly and easily when people have high emotions.

I would say that I always give people permission. It’s like you have permission to take time. You just got sideswiped by an eighteen-wheel emotionally. You’re not going to run a marathon tomorrow. You need some time and you have every right to tell your spouse that you hear them. Even if you’ve been in counseling and you know that things have been bumpy and a decision has been made. That is a life-changing decision and you have every right.

You’re grieving. You’re in fight, flight, or freeze. You’re not thinking straight. You’re going to be angry and sad and everything else. You take the time that you need. That is not stalling or manipulating. That is taking care of yourself. I love when people come to us in those very early stages because we can speak reason that sounds different than what their spouse is telling them because their spouses like, “I’ve been thinking about this for months. Let’s get going. Let’s hire the mediator or the attorney next week.” It’s like no. Only because they’re ready, doesn’t mean that you have to move.

That creates such a beautiful space for people to go, “That sounds more reasonable. That feels better in my heart and my body. How do I do that? She’s going to be pushing at me constantly.” How do you handle it when one person is like that? The other thing I would like to say, because I’m going to disagree with you a little bit here. I specialize in high conflict and my clients remain low conflict. They come in saying, “I want an amicable divorce, but I’ve had this marriage that’s been anything but amicable for years or decades.”

There’s a big difference and I’ve had many of collaborative attorneys send me clients saying they can’t do collaborative because of their spouse. They’re not going to be able to. They have no choice. I do think that the majority of people think they’re divorcing a narcissist, which is heartbreaking. The majority of people do label their divorce as a high conflict when divorce has conflict.

That’s part of the environment that you’re in, but there are those people and there are entire rest of people who are divorcing someone whether they’re neurodivergent, traumatized, PTSD, or personality disorders. They are reasonably inflexible, reactive, and don’t take ownership. My word is, you can still live in peace and joy and have a beautiful life. You just have to be very strategic and very skilled to be able to do it.

That’s achieving mastery. Walking between the drops or at least knowing when to take an umbrella and not letting the other person’s weather impact our lives. Amen to that.

I like the way you said that, too. That was a nice metaphor for it.

You and I are in agreement about this. Although, maybe the way I phrased it before was in quite right then. I would say if in one possible, reduce conflict between people and then don’t let the other person, whether influence yours.

If she doesn’t make you feel and she doesn’t make you do, you own that. You feel and you do and she could be very displeasing but you are feeling and you are doing. You need to own that.

Amen. In that, I would say also one thing that I see often is people going through divorce have that become their entire identity. It’s true that it’s very consuming and it can be extremely stressful. You do need to plan and you wonder about implications. You’re maybe juggling a few different things, but it just becomes their full identity. Who are you? I’m a divorcing person. It’s not great if that’s the first thing that you think of when you think about yourself.

Maybe it’s a thing that’s happening for sure but even when you’re remodeling your kitchen or things that people do even when you’re planting a ten-day backpacking trip or whatever it is. That’s not all of you. There’s other stuff going on. To be able to fit that into the rest of our lives and have that taken appropriate space rather than allowed to completely creeped over. I’m thinking about this because of what you said now. The common first response when I say this is, “She’s just completely.” I’m like, “You’re the one who’s deciding how much time and energy to give this.”

Exactly. It’s such a good point. It’s so overwhelming. My longest standing client is going into year eleven but I would say 2 to 3 years for high conflict. It’s not unusual and that ability to identify more holistically. I love that perspective. Divorce is a big part of what I’m dealing with but it’s not who I am and what I am. I want to go back to the kids for a second and maybe give the readers one or two tips that you give your dad. You’re in this situation that you’re not getting as much time with the kids. Maybe there is an even shared parenting plan temporary in place or there is and it sucks for you. What are one or two tips you would give dads around that piece of it early on before any final decisions have been made?

Reassuring Fathers: Maintaining Connection With Kids Post-Divorce

Let me lay out my assumptions first. My assumptions are, in this case, we’re talking about a father who wants to be in his kids’ lives, wants a strong connection with his kids and prioritizes his kids wellbeing. I’m starting with that in mind. The first thing that’s super important to remember and be reminded of is that it’s very hard for kids to disconnect from their parents emotionally. It’s extremely unlikely to happen. A lot needs to happen.

A lot more than a lot needs to happen for kids to disconnect emotionally from their parents. It’s just hardwired. We can’t help it. Many of us have had childhoods that were not ideal with parents that were not ideal and we still are not just in touch with them. We call them when we’re upset. We check in with them when they’re upset. To learn to manage the fear or panic that we feel about the looming specter of becoming a strange from our children takes a lot.

I know plenty of kids who have seen their parents once a month growing up and still consider them to be their parents. We’re still connected and still had a relationship with them when they were growing up and after they became adults. I’m not saying that’s ideal but it can happen. To learn to decatastrophize is super important. Recognize that your kids in all likelihood will love you and think of you as their parent and the relationship can always be improved.

If you’re not walking away, they’re not walking away. If you’re walking away, they still may not walk away. They’re going to want to be your kids. It’s going to take a lot for them to not. That’s the most important things, to remember this and to be reminded of this because that’s the fear of becoming estranged. It’s such a driving fear.

If you’re not walking away, your kids are not walking away. If you’re walking away, they still may not walk away. They’re going to want to be your kids. It’s going to take a lot for them to not.

Can you speak just a second on that? I love that. I’m wondering for the person who ruminates about losing their kids, talks about losing their kids, and tells everyone they’re losing their kids, where all of their mental and emotional energy is going. What’s the impact of that?

For people for whom it’s important to have a strong relationship with their kids, it’s devastating. If you think about the psychological definition of trauma. A traumatic situation is a situation in which something terrible is happening to us or people we love that we see in our powerless to stop. That’s psychological trauma, which may or may not develop into this order later. A lot of people go through trauma and then are okay or grow because of it but that’s trauma.

To be telling ourselves this story in which the kids are ripped away from us never to be seen again and to be constantly watching this movie on her head is basically constantly repeatedly inflicting this trauma on ourselves and telling us the story to the point that maybe we believe it. Maybe we stop trying. Maybe we give up. Maybe we say, “It’s too hurtful for them. It’s too hurtful for me. Maybe they’re better off without me as I’m dealing with my own self-image or as I’m going through this. All of this.”

It’s damaging for people to walk around constantly thinking about how they’re losing their kids because it hurts them. It feels bad. It distracts him from building a life they enjoy. It can create this desperation around the kids that can be unhealthy when in contact with the kids. If the kids are picking up on it, which they are because they’re all telepathic. It’s bad all around to be living with this conviction that I’m losing my kids. This is separate from maintaining the strong intention and motivation of continuing to improve the connection with the kids of having a better connection.

Maybe that includes more time or maybe not but these two can be separate. It’s possible to orient and act with great intentionality toward having more connection with the kids while not being in panic about losing the kids forever. I’ll also say, this is a general formula about anything we’re afraid of. It’s being afraid of something that could happen is a huge waste of energy. Typically, when I find myself having these kinds of fears, I go through three steps.

Being afraid of something that could happen is a huge waste of energy.

I tell myself, “First of all, it may turn out differently then I’m just wasting all of this fear. Maybe in five years I will have a fantastic relationship with my kid and will be so well connected. Who knows? I’m just upset about what’s going to happen if five years.” I don’t know what’s going to happen in five years. That’s step one. Step two, it may be partially true but it may not be as bad as I think. Maybe we’ll have just a fine connection and I’ll be fine with it because I’ll also be doing other things. It’ll be an appropriate parent-child relationship and it’s okay.

Thirdly, if it does happen and if it’s exactly as bad as I think, then I’ll feel horrible about it then. I don’t need to feel horrible about it now. It’s going to come. There’s no need to borrow trouble from the future. It just doesn’t help, but that’s hardest for people about these kinds of things. People and myself included, we have this concern and belief that if we’re not hugely, negatively, emotionally impacted by something. We don’t care and we’re not going to be motivated to solve it. It’s just so important to remember that it’s possible to care and work towards something without being completely consumed and overwhelmed by it.

I hear you talk a lot about the narrative. You started this conversation with fact. Most children, no matter our age, no matter how good or bad, we stay connected with our parents. That’s a fact. That’s something that has happened over the course of time. The fiction is, “It’s not going to be for me. They’re never going to, and I’m going to lose them.” I hear you delineating between that fear fiction and what has been, and even if it is.

I’m reading Gay Hendricks, Big Leap and he says, “When you worry about something, ask yourself, ‘Can I do something about? If I can do anything about it now, let it go. If I can do it, let me do the thing I can do.’” That’s the other thing as you’re talking. It’s like, “I can stay in communication. I can let them know how much I love them. I can do everything that I can do. When crisis hits, I can face crisis.” Much easier said than done.

I worked with a couple of parents who are struggling with parental alienation and yet, even for them, it’s like what can you do? You can keep in touch even if it’s a one-way communication. You can keep sending out love and connection and just the shift in narrative, Eran, from, I’m losing them to, I have the ability to build and rebuild with them, is such an emotion. That’s just such a lightning and a higher-level feeling when you can focus on what you’re capable of.

Reframing The Narrative: From Fear Of Loss To Building Connections

I agree 100%. We live a story in our head all the time and we have a fair amount of control over the story. Not perfect because we are the storyteller. To be able to shift the narrative from as you said from, I’m losing them to, this is a period of less connection, for example. Think about our own lives. How many friends do we have who we’ve been in closer contact with for some time and less contact for other? How about our connection with their own parents and think about the phases that it’s gone through? Sometimes more and sometimes less.

We live a story in our head all the time and we have a fair amount of control over the story.

Start bringing in additional reference points to recognize that this is not forever. Very few things are forever. This is not hopeless and predetermined. There’s so many ways that this can go in our own intentionality and our own orientation are going to have such a big impact there. Being able to change that story is important and we need other people often to help us change that story and that’s okay. Connect with other people that can help you with that story.

We’re not going to be able to dive into all five but I would love to talk about the who am I and the self-worth issues. I have one client that comes to mind a couple of decades of being married and being told as a very successful and connected partner and dad, what a terrible parent he is, how incapable and useless he is.

Also, having been in a fairly toxic marriage. It’s like brainwashing. After a while, you just believe what you’re being told. Here you have these dads in regular divorce and in high conflict divorce. The two things that I heard you say was, the negative messaging and, if I’m not the head of my household, if I’m not the husband, and dad, who the heck am I? Can we just dive into those two a little bit?

If I’m not for them, who am I?

Rebuilding Self-Worth: Identity & Messaging Challenges After Separation

The other thing I’d like to focus on, Eran, is the negative messaging and the impact that has on dad’s and then that piece that you talked about which is, if I’m no longer the head of the house. Who am I? Those two I’d love to dive into a little bit.

We talked about how for many men, the home relationship, relationship with the spouse and with the kids are the primary emotional connections that exist in life. Very often, these are the people that we go to for emotional comfort. Maybe not so much leaning on kids for comfort, but certainly drawing a lot of comfort from the relationship with the kids and going to the spouse for emotional comfort and disclosure in talking about the deepest darkest and all of that, at least for a good long part of the relationship. Maybe all the way through to the end. To have a person who up until a short while ago was our confidant, turn around and tell us that we’re a very bad person can be devastating because presumably, they know us best.

Now they know well our dirty door secrets, too.

We’ll point them out as needed and sometimes as not. A sense of, “This person knows me best and this person thinks I’m horrible,” can be devastating. Is everybody else that knows me deceived that I managed to make somehow other people think that I’m a good person but I’m not because this one person who knows me tells me that I’m not? It can be very distinct stabilizing, especially if they’re not other people who feel us know us. Maybe it’s like the only person who knows me well says to me that I’m a bad person. That can be crushing.

With respect to the identity of you, what do I do if I’m not part of this household? It’s a very real almost logistical question. There’s a default schedule when you’re in a marriage and a parent. A lot of your time is taken up by that. At the beginning, I would say the first probably year to two years, it’s very hard for people to think about the space that opened up is anything but vacuum. Feeling like they’re just in free fall through outer space.

Later on, people realize, “I have all this free time now.” They start doing stuff with it and realize that it’s this other side of the coin that is the part of the experience to focus on. “I have a lot of free time on. I can do all these cool things,” but it doesn’t change the fact that maybe you’re coming home to an empty place. Now, there’s not the noise and comfort of a family then there’s the question of meaning. If you are the person who works at a job out of a sense of responsibility because you want to provide for your family and your job is acceptable to you but not more than that.

Suddenly, there’s not a family to provide for or there’s a family to provide for even though you disagree with the concept. If you think that your ex is getting a lot of child support money out of you or took a lot of your money in the agreement or court decision or what have you. Again, however, you’re telling yourself the story. You might be feeling like, “I’m working for this other person that I don’t agree with. Working for my ex was taking a lot of my money in a way that’s not fair and so on.” Work becomes potentially less satisfying or less meaningful if most of the meaning before was about providing for your family or providing for spouse and kids.

Now this can become very bitter. What do I do with myself, is a big question. How was work fair now, becomes a big question and what is happening in terms of money. These again are all things that are destabilizing especially for people who primarily have their life billed on doing work and then coming home and being with the family.

It’s quite the rug being pulled out from underneath and that’s not such a primary focus. How do you work with men? Do you do one-on-one? Do you have groups? Do you have programs? Is it just the website? How does that work?

The website has a bunch of content on it and some of it is on YouTube or whatnot. People find it there. I run groups for men to meet and talk. They’re not supposed to be complaint sessions, but it’s for mutual support. We’re often able to remind other people of things that are hard for us to remember and in the process, reminder ourselves about the same thing.

Sometimes individually if it seems warranted. When I work with people individually, I asked to record the conversations and then we de-identify the person. We send the recording to an actor who then reads it in his own voice. We change names, location and that becomes part of the episode so then people can hear experiences of other people who’ve gone through this process and get a sense of how this plays out.

I was reading to your show. I was wondering if those were real clients. That’s interesting. You have an actor who basically takes that reality and just de-identify it. It’s a great way.

Not even reading. The actor listens in one ear to the original dad talking and then just says it again in the actor’s voice. The same words and same content. It’s not even based on a true story. It’s exactly the true story. Only having another person read it in order to protect the privacy of the family, especially the kids involved. These are all the ways. The website is DivorcingDads.org and everything is on there. People can find everything else from there. The show is called the Divorcing Dads. It’s all very obvious.

Seeking Support & Healing: Practical Advice & Crisis Resources

One more tip before we just say goodbye. On the negative messaging where somebody begins to believe what’s being said about them or begins to doubt what they thought they knew about themselves. What’s the tip or the strategy that you could leave out readers with around that?

Talk to other people. Talk to friends, family, or get therapy. Talk to Karen McMahon or to whoever you need to find a support group. Talk to your pastor or Rabbi or Imam or whoever was around in your spiritual neighborhood. Talk to other people. You need more voices in your head. You need to triangulate yourself. You can’t get a good read on yourself just from a single source of information. That’s by far and away the most important. Also, in this vein, I want to remind people of this amazing service that we’re all paying for and few of us are using, 988. It’s the national crisis and suicide prevention line.

If you call 988 from any phone, anywhere in the US, you’re going to get connected 24/7 to live confidential counseling. It’s not meant for long term therapy. You can call whenever you’re upset. You don’t need to be even suicidal. You can also call if you’re worried about somebody else. They’re amazing people there. They’re very well trained. They’re caring and empathetic. They’re waiting for you. You’re paying for them. You taxes are funding, so you may as well use it.

If you’re upset, any time. You wake up at 4:00 AM and your friends are probably sleeping. Call 988 if you’re upset. Tip number one, talk to other people. Tip number two, which hopefully other people will tell you to do as well is, just review the facts. Somebody told you you’re horrible mean person and never does anything nice.

Say, “What nice things have I done in the past year? Is there anybody who thinks I am nice? Sure. My mom. Great. Why does she think I’m nice? I did help her move with the thing, but she’s my mom. Did I help anyone else move?” You can go through this process but again, it’s hard to do it on our own when we have such a strong negative voice in our head and inner ear. Talk to other people by far in a way the most important thing to do.

I have a program called Reclaim Your Mind: Evict Your Spouse from your Mental Space. One of the modules in it is, as soon as he or she leaves, your inner critic comes swooping in with an even louder amplifier. I completely agree with you that external sounding board if people who know you and care about you is vitally important. This has been a great conversation. I so appreciate you coming on and sharing with me and the readers.

My great pleasure. Thank you. I enjoyed it, too. There’s a so much to talk about.

We barely scratched the surface but this is what we have for you. If you enjoyed the conversation, please check out Divorcing Dad’s Show, DivorcingDads.org and the group that Eran has for men, which might be particularly interesting for you. Eran, again, thank you so very much for what you’re doing in the world, for all the men that you’re helping and for showing up and sharing with our audience.

My pleasure. Likewise for you. Thank you for this incredible work that you’re doing. It’s very meaningful to have at this juncture in life and empathetic insightful, experienced, and caring woman who’s willing to say, “You’re not a bad person. It doesn’t mean that your ex is evil but you’re okay and you’re a good worthwhile person.” It’s amazing that you exist. I’m happy for all the people going through a hard time that can contact you and get your help.

Thank you so much. I raise my kids on, “What you say and what comes out of your mouth is about you. Your behavior is about you. What comes out of their mouth is about them and their behavior is about them.” If you could just hold on to that, life will be a lot easier.

Amen.

We’ll be back again real soon. Until then, you take care.

Important Links

• Eran Magen
• Eran Magen on LinkedIn
• Eran Magen on Instagram
• Divorcing Dads
• Parenting For Humans
• Big Leap
• Divorcing Dads Podcast
• Follow JBD on Instagram
• Join the High Conflict Divorce Support Group
• Soberlink
• Talking Parents